[OrRando] Insoles?
joel metz
magpie at blackbirdsf.org
Thu May 31 18:10:59 PDT 2007
i think what can be taken away from all this is simply that all three
major contact points - butt/saddle, hands/bars, feet/pedals - and
their accompanying accessories (shoes, insoles, gloves, bar tape etc
etc etc) are intensely personal - i honestly dont think there is a
universal comfort solution for any of them beyond just trying more
and more products, positions etc until something, anything, works.
its one of those times where i feel lucky that ive always been able
to comfortably ride a wide variety of saddles (i never did pick a
side in the great turbo/concor wars of the 1980s...). gel saddles
work for some, others cant stand em. brooks work for others, and yet
others cant stand em.
but then, ive never thought of the brooks as a "hard" saddle. i
always have found them to have a lot of give, much like the "hard"
plastic unicanitors...
but there may also be a difference between what works for going
really far, really fast, and what works for going really far, at a
good clip - and im definitely more of the latter :)
-joel
At 17:17 +0000 05.31.2007, Kamp, David wrote:
>More on discomfort on the bike:
>
>Well most of my learning about management of contact points on the
>bicycle comes from Lon Haldeman, who has been across the country a few
>times at high speed. He uses a Brooks B17 saddle and Look cleats on
>some retro looking road shoes with those cleats placed 'way back as
>mentioned in a previous post. (Definition of a randonneur/randonneuse:
>one who buys a 17 pound bike and puts a 2 pound saddle on it.) I looked
>inside his shoes when he was talking about the cleat placement and there
>were no insoles, just some worn leatherish looking liners.
>
>When queried about RAAM style chamois he said for his tandem records
>(mixed and two men) he wore "teddy bear" fleece chamois, made by a
>friend. It was a polypro fleece that of course compressed over the
>course of a day and had to be washed and fluffed up. The chamois did
>not wear well, and was used only for the ultramarathon stuff he did back
>in the day. That fleece, if you think about it, would provide millions
>of little fiber cushions, allowing air to circulate and offering some
>"springiness" on a micro scale. Probably also dealt with friction by
>"giving" just enough. Well, so isn't that a soft saddle, so to speak?
>
>Lon maintains that one doesn't put in "butt miles" to deal with saddle
>pressure discomfort, rather "leg miles". With strong legs one is
>pushing the ischial tuberosities off contact by perhaps fractions of a
>millimeter every pedal stroke, allowing blood to flow and tissue to
>recover. He thinks that gel saddles move around too much, don't allow
>one to come up off the saddle that tiny increment, and what he likes is
>NO movement other than what he chooses to impart. Bear in mind Lon
>Haldeman has hugely powerful legs, with large muscles. He's a big
>fellow to boot, so he supports quite a load. He pushes that load
>vertically a tiny amount with each stroke. Further, he reminded us,
>some of the pressure discomfort can be alleviated by lowering the
>saddle. Sure it rides lower than "spec", but if it works, isn't that
>the appropriate height?
>
>Pete Penseyeres (sp?) and Fred Matheny are also hard saddle proponents
>for the reasons cited in the post. Now, perhaps the female cyclist with
>slightly different pelvic structure than the male counterpart, responds
>to the hard leather saddles differently. When Pete did his record-speed
>RAAM he commented, "Nothing hurt. If it did, I wouldn't have been able
>to go as fast."
>
>The important conclusion of all this is that, as Lon says, experiment.
>You can listen to others, but you have to go with what works for you,
>determined by experimentation. I rode gel and other soft materials for
>years before joining the Brooks culture, and would never go back.
>
>Anyone who completes RAAM should be speaking with authority about what
>works (for them), and ought to command some attention. Based on
>Susan's remarks I'm going to try one of those old Terry gels, one that
>still has the gel mostly in its original place.
>
>David Kamp
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: orrando-bounces at tire.patch.com
>[mailto:orrando-bounces at tire.patch.com] On Behalf Of Susan France
>Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 7:16 PM
>To: Oregon area Randonneurs
>Subject: RE: [OrRando] Insoles?
>
>I sure glad those Gel saddles weren't banned when I did RAAM. I needed
>all the gel I could get between my bruised bottom and the road
>vibration. I suppose wool fleece, airline pillows, and seats turned
>backwards should be banned too... but they've all been used in long
>distance cycling.
>
>I don't like hard things in my shoes. Those hard things turn into
>bruises that swell and then one ends up looking in their shoe for the
>mysterious lumps... which is not in the shoe, but in the foot. I was
>absolutely certain I had gravel in my shoes 5 days into RAAM.
>
>Susan.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: "Kamp, David" <david.kamp at hp.com>
>>Sent: May 30, 2007 12:43 PM
>>To: Oregon area Randonneurs <orrando at tire.patch.com>
>>Subject: RE: [OrRando] Insoles?
>>
>>Gel saddles have been banned by long distance cyclists because the gel
>>squishes and causes weight to be distributed in soft places where it
>>begins to hurt after a long time. Also, it moves around, leading to
>>abrasion sorts of problems with the skin against the chamois. Hard
>>saddles like the Brooks B17 are recommended for long distance touring.
>>I wonder if the same argument applies for gel inserts in shoes. The
>>metatarsal button in Specialized shoes, for example, is a hard-ish
>>button, not a gel thing. Just a thought.
>>
>>At PAC Tour Desert Camp Lon Haldeman says "If it hurts, fix it. Do
>>experiments until you get to where it fits." He applies this to the
>>bike and to apparel. His admonishments had me lowering my saddle 3 mm
>>at a time for three times (nearly 1 cm!), and raising my handlebars
>>about 2 cm. Still not perfect, but better. He says conventional
>>wisdom isn't for everyone, which is why he tried moving his cleats
>back.
>>Because of Lon's wisdom I'm more inclined to try different things now
>>instead of sticking to formulas.
>>
>>David Kamp
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: orrando-bounces at tire.patch.com
>>[mailto:orrando-bounces at tire.patch.com] On Behalf Of
>>cecilanne at comcast.net
>>Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 6:20 PM
>>To: Oregon area Randonneurs
>>Subject: RE: [OrRando] Insoles?
>>
>>Hmm, there's a thought - thanks. I put some Dr. S gel insoles in for
>>yesterday's 104-miler, and had no pain - I was not, however, hammering
>>as much as usual. We'll see what happens during next Saturday's 125 .
>.
>>
>>
>>cecil
>>
>> -------------- Original message ----------------------
>>From: "Kamp, David" <david.kamp at hp.com>
>>> Lon Haldeman (early RAAM fame) drilled new holes in his shoes and
>>> moved his cleats back about an inch. It put the pedal axle behind
>>> the
>>
>>> metatarsals and closer to the middle of the arch where he gets better
>
>>> stress distribution. -David Kamp
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> From: orrando-bounces at tire.patch.com
>>> [mailto:orrando-bounces at tire.patch.com] On Behalf Of Jon Beilby
>>> Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 8:29 PM
>>> To: Oregon area Randonneurs
>>> Subject: Re: [OrRando] Insoles?
>>>
>>>
>>> try the specialized bicycle shoe insoles, they have a raised ridge
>>> and
>>
>>> a metatarsel button, I was having a major problem last fall and when
>>> I
>>
>>> began using these in my sidi mountain bike shoes with frogs it helped
>
>>> a bunch, they come in different colors with each color having more or
>
>>> less shape to them, no problems on the 400k except for a stretch from
>
>>> harrisburg to albany when we were working hard and I don't think we
>>> had a foot down for a couple hours.
>>> other things that help some folks are:
>>> move the cleat back as far as it will go on the shoe, may require
>>> shoe
>>
>>> surgery don't stand so much spin, don't mash,
>>>
>>> good luck,
>>> jon
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5/26/07, Susan France <susanfrance at teleport.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> In addition to having a delicate digestive system I also
> >inherited my
>>> father's wide, flat feet. I'm very prone to hot foot. The
>>solution
>>> during
>>> RAAM was that every time I was off the bike my feet (shoes and
>>> all) were in
>>> a bucket of ice water. No very convenient for Randoing.
> >> Podiatrist told me
>>> to blame my Dad but I simply did not have good feet for cycling
>>and
>>> no
>>> insole was going to help the sloppy structure of my feet.
>>>
>>> I will get hot feet in anything over about 72 degrees. I
>>switched to
>>> Shimano
>>> Sandals over a decade ago. I buy them in bulk and keep them in
>>the
>>> closet as
>>> I wear them out. In the summer I like to put in an insole like a
>>Dr
>>> Sholls
>>> Blue Gel...the extra cush seems to help. Of course you'll always
>>see
>>> me with
>>> my insole hanging out the back or the front of my sandals...
>>> (maybe some
>>> double sided tape is in order?) The insole breaks down after
>>about 1
>>> summer.
>>> The sandals are nice because they a flatter than most cycling
>>> shoes...
>>> better not to be wear a shoe shaped like a pair of stilettos if
>>you
>>> get hot
>>> feet! You can loosen them up as your feet swell, the air
>>circulates
>>> better,
>>> and, what I like best of all.... you can douse your feet with
>>water
>>> from you
>>> bottle or camelback without getting off the bike. I also have
>>been
>>> known to
>>> soak my feet (sandals & all) in roadside stream or under
>>faucets. I
>>> can
>>> guarantee the sandals hold up just fine.
>>>
>>> Susan.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: orrando-bounces at tire.patch.com
>>> [mailto:orrando-bounces at tire.patch.com]On Behalf Of
>>> cecilanne at comcast.net
>>> Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 4:05 PM
>>> To: oregon area Randonneurs
>>> Subject: [OrRando] Insoles?
>>>
>>>
>>> Recently on my 100+ mile rides I have been experiencing "hot
>>foot"
>>> sooner
>>> and more intensely than usual. I am thinking some new insoles
>>in the
>>> battered shoes might help (can't afford new shoes) - but I am
>>not
>>> sure if i
>>> should just go with good ol' Dr. Scholl's or if there is another
>>
>>> brand/type
>>> out there I should try. Any suggestions?
>>>
>>> Cecil
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> OrRando at tire.patch.com
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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--
joel metz : magpie at blackbirdsf.org : http://www.blackbirdsf.org/
bike messengers worldwide : ifbma : http://www.messengers.org/
magpie messenger collective http://www.magpiemessenger.com/
portland, oregon
==
i know what innocence looks like - and it wasn't there,
after she got that bicycle...
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