[OrRando] Insoles?
Kamp, David
david.kamp at hp.com
Thu May 31 10:17:00 PDT 2007
More on discomfort on the bike:
Well most of my learning about management of contact points on the
bicycle comes from Lon Haldeman, who has been across the country a few
times at high speed. He uses a Brooks B17 saddle and Look cleats on
some retro looking road shoes with those cleats placed 'way back as
mentioned in a previous post. (Definition of a randonneur/randonneuse:
one who buys a 17 pound bike and puts a 2 pound saddle on it.) I looked
inside his shoes when he was talking about the cleat placement and there
were no insoles, just some worn leatherish looking liners.
When queried about RAAM style chamois he said for his tandem records
(mixed and two men) he wore "teddy bear" fleece chamois, made by a
friend. It was a polypro fleece that of course compressed over the
course of a day and had to be washed and fluffed up. The chamois did
not wear well, and was used only for the ultramarathon stuff he did back
in the day. That fleece, if you think about it, would provide millions
of little fiber cushions, allowing air to circulate and offering some
"springiness" on a micro scale. Probably also dealt with friction by
"giving" just enough. Well, so isn't that a soft saddle, so to speak?
Lon maintains that one doesn't put in "butt miles" to deal with saddle
pressure discomfort, rather "leg miles". With strong legs one is
pushing the ischial tuberosities off contact by perhaps fractions of a
millimeter every pedal stroke, allowing blood to flow and tissue to
recover. He thinks that gel saddles move around too much, don't allow
one to come up off the saddle that tiny increment, and what he likes is
NO movement other than what he chooses to impart. Bear in mind Lon
Haldeman has hugely powerful legs, with large muscles. He's a big
fellow to boot, so he supports quite a load. He pushes that load
vertically a tiny amount with each stroke. Further, he reminded us,
some of the pressure discomfort can be alleviated by lowering the
saddle. Sure it rides lower than "spec", but if it works, isn't that
the appropriate height?
Pete Penseyeres (sp?) and Fred Matheny are also hard saddle proponents
for the reasons cited in the post. Now, perhaps the female cyclist with
slightly different pelvic structure than the male counterpart, responds
to the hard leather saddles differently. When Pete did his record-speed
RAAM he commented, "Nothing hurt. If it did, I wouldn't have been able
to go as fast."
The important conclusion of all this is that, as Lon says, experiment.
You can listen to others, but you have to go with what works for you,
determined by experimentation. I rode gel and other soft materials for
years before joining the Brooks culture, and would never go back.
Anyone who completes RAAM should be speaking with authority about what
works (for them), and ought to command some attention. Based on
Susan's remarks I'm going to try one of those old Terry gels, one that
still has the gel mostly in its original place.
David Kamp
-----Original Message-----
From: orrando-bounces at tire.patch.com
[mailto:orrando-bounces at tire.patch.com] On Behalf Of Susan France
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 7:16 PM
To: Oregon area Randonneurs
Subject: RE: [OrRando] Insoles?
I sure glad those Gel saddles weren't banned when I did RAAM. I needed
all the gel I could get between my bruised bottom and the road
vibration. I suppose wool fleece, airline pillows, and seats turned
backwards should be banned too... but they've all been used in long
distance cycling.
I don't like hard things in my shoes. Those hard things turn into
bruises that swell and then one ends up looking in their shoe for the
mysterious lumps... which is not in the shoe, but in the foot. I was
absolutely certain I had gravel in my shoes 5 days into RAAM.
Susan.
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Kamp, David" <david.kamp at hp.com>
>Sent: May 30, 2007 12:43 PM
>To: Oregon area Randonneurs <orrando at tire.patch.com>
>Subject: RE: [OrRando] Insoles?
>
>Gel saddles have been banned by long distance cyclists because the gel
>squishes and causes weight to be distributed in soft places where it
>begins to hurt after a long time. Also, it moves around, leading to
>abrasion sorts of problems with the skin against the chamois. Hard
>saddles like the Brooks B17 are recommended for long distance touring.
>I wonder if the same argument applies for gel inserts in shoes. The
>metatarsal button in Specialized shoes, for example, is a hard-ish
>button, not a gel thing. Just a thought.
>
>At PAC Tour Desert Camp Lon Haldeman says "If it hurts, fix it. Do
>experiments until you get to where it fits." He applies this to the
>bike and to apparel. His admonishments had me lowering my saddle 3 mm
>at a time for three times (nearly 1 cm!), and raising my handlebars
>about 2 cm. Still not perfect, but better. He says conventional
>wisdom isn't for everyone, which is why he tried moving his cleats
back.
>Because of Lon's wisdom I'm more inclined to try different things now
>instead of sticking to formulas.
>
>David Kamp
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: orrando-bounces at tire.patch.com
>[mailto:orrando-bounces at tire.patch.com] On Behalf Of
>cecilanne at comcast.net
>Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 6:20 PM
>To: Oregon area Randonneurs
>Subject: RE: [OrRando] Insoles?
>
>Hmm, there's a thought - thanks. I put some Dr. S gel insoles in for
>yesterday's 104-miler, and had no pain - I was not, however, hammering
>as much as usual. We'll see what happens during next Saturday's 125 .
.
>
>
>cecil
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
>From: "Kamp, David" <david.kamp at hp.com>
>> Lon Haldeman (early RAAM fame) drilled new holes in his shoes and
>> moved his cleats back about an inch. It put the pedal axle behind
>> the
>
>> metatarsals and closer to the middle of the arch where he gets better
>> stress distribution. -David Kamp
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: orrando-bounces at tire.patch.com
>> [mailto:orrando-bounces at tire.patch.com] On Behalf Of Jon Beilby
>> Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 8:29 PM
>> To: Oregon area Randonneurs
>> Subject: Re: [OrRando] Insoles?
>>
>>
>> try the specialized bicycle shoe insoles, they have a raised ridge
>> and
>
>> a metatarsel button, I was having a major problem last fall and when
>> I
>
>> began using these in my sidi mountain bike shoes with frogs it helped
>> a bunch, they come in different colors with each color having more or
>> less shape to them, no problems on the 400k except for a stretch from
>> harrisburg to albany when we were working hard and I don't think we
>> had a foot down for a couple hours.
>> other things that help some folks are:
>> move the cleat back as far as it will go on the shoe, may require
>> shoe
>
>> surgery don't stand so much spin, don't mash,
>>
>> good luck,
>> jon
>>
>>
>> On 5/26/07, Susan France <susanfrance at teleport.com> wrote:
>>
>> In addition to having a delicate digestive system I also
>inherited my
>> father's wide, flat feet. I'm very prone to hot foot. The
>solution
>> during
>> RAAM was that every time I was off the bike my feet (shoes and
>> all) were in
>> a bucket of ice water. No very convenient for Randoing.
>> Podiatrist told me
>> to blame my Dad but I simply did not have good feet for cycling
>and
>> no
>> insole was going to help the sloppy structure of my feet.
>>
>> I will get hot feet in anything over about 72 degrees. I
>switched to
>> Shimano
>> Sandals over a decade ago. I buy them in bulk and keep them in
>the
>> closet as
>> I wear them out. In the summer I like to put in an insole like a
>Dr
>> Sholls
>> Blue Gel...the extra cush seems to help. Of course you'll always
>see
>> me with
>> my insole hanging out the back or the front of my sandals...
>> (maybe some
>> double sided tape is in order?) The insole breaks down after
>about 1
>> summer.
>> The sandals are nice because they a flatter than most cycling
>> shoes...
>> better not to be wear a shoe shaped like a pair of stilettos if
>you
>> get hot
>> feet! You can loosen them up as your feet swell, the air
>circulates
>> better,
>> and, what I like best of all.... you can douse your feet with
>water
>> from you
>> bottle or camelback without getting off the bike. I also have
>been
>> known to
>> soak my feet (sandals & all) in roadside stream or under
>faucets. I
>> can
>> guarantee the sandals hold up just fine.
>>
>> Susan.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: orrando-bounces at tire.patch.com
>> [mailto:orrando-bounces at tire.patch.com]On Behalf Of
>> cecilanne at comcast.net
>> Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 4:05 PM
>> To: oregon area Randonneurs
>> Subject: [OrRando] Insoles?
>>
>>
>> Recently on my 100+ mile rides I have been experiencing "hot
>foot"
>> sooner
>> and more intensely than usual. I am thinking some new insoles
>in the
>> battered shoes might help (can't afford new shoes) - but I am
>not
>> sure if i
>> should just go with good ol' Dr. Scholl's or if there is another
>
>> brand/type
>> out there I should try. Any suggestions?
>>
>> Cecil
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>>
>>
>
>
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